Comments on: Is it easier for women to get faculty jobs in science and engineering?* http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2007/09/09/is-it-easier-for-women-to-get-faculty-jobs-in-science-and-engineering/ life, life in science, miscellaneous thoughts Thu, 28 Aug 2008 11:07:00 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=1.5.1-alpha by: drshellie http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2007/09/09/is-it-easier-for-women-to-get-faculty-jobs-in-science-and-engineering/#comment-582 Tue, 01 Apr 2008 01:57:13 +0100 http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2007/09/09/is-it-easier-for-women-to-get-faculty-jobs-in-science-and-engineering/#comment-582 I don't know the numbers on male v. female applicants, but would love to see. Meanwhile, I sympathize with your job search-- good luck! I don’t know the numbers on male v. female applicants, but would love to see.

Meanwhile, I sympathize with your job search– good luck!

]]> by: anon http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2007/09/09/is-it-easier-for-women-to-get-faculty-jobs-in-science-and-engineering/#comment-581 Mon, 31 Mar 2008 23:19:00 +0100 http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2007/09/09/is-it-easier-for-women-to-get-faculty-jobs-in-science-and-engineering/#comment-581 What I wonder is, what proportion of applicants are women? I see very few female candidates come through, are the ladies just not applying? Recent psychology search had 7 candidates with just one woman! This is a field that's 50% female PhD's,I believe. Also, I think that whatever 'diversity' buys you as a woman, doesn't compensate for the other things that hold women back (undervaluation, perceptions of style, two-body problem). The female 'stars' do get wooed and a dozen offers, while the janes who are just as good as the joes get overlooked, or are more likely to experience two-career hurdles. My experiences: - 5 interviews (3 this year), so far no offers (fingers still crossed) - nearly every place questioned me regarding spousal issues - from veiled ('gee, I can't think of any other questions to ask...legal that is, har, har') to direct to accusing ('so, what are you going to do with your husband if you are offered the job?!') - pretty sure I was the token woman at the hot Big Research U; all the men had 2007 C/S/N pubs, mine are several years old...and I knew someone on the SC. Not holding my breath. - My opinions are despite the fact that I know many of the people involved are quite well intentioned (although the people who asked me what i would do with hubby can bite me). What I wonder is, what proportion of applicants are women? I see very few female candidates come through, are the ladies just not applying? Recent psychology search had 7 candidates with just one woman! This is a field that’s 50% female PhD’s,I believe.

Also, I think that whatever ‘diversity’ buys you as a woman, doesn’t compensate for the other things that hold women back (undervaluation, perceptions of style, two-body problem). The female ’stars’ do get wooed and a dozen offers, while the janes who are just as good as the joes get overlooked, or are more likely to experience two-career hurdles.

My experiences:

- 5 interviews (3 this year), so far no offers (fingers still crossed)
- nearly every place questioned me regarding spousal issues - from veiled (’gee, I can’t think of any other questions to ask…legal that is, har, har’) to direct to accusing (’so, what are you going to do with your husband if you are offered the job?!’)
- pretty sure I was the token woman at the hot Big Research U; all the men had 2007 C/S/N pubs, mine are several years old…and I knew someone on the SC. Not holding my breath.
- My opinions are despite the fact that I know many of the people involved are quite well intentioned (although the people who asked me what i would do with hubby can bite me).

]]> by: Kea http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2007/09/09/is-it-easier-for-women-to-get-faculty-jobs-in-science-and-engineering/#comment-412 Sun, 23 Sep 2007 20:42:11 +0100 http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2007/09/09/is-it-easier-for-women-to-get-faculty-jobs-in-science-and-engineering/#comment-412 Last, as a senior postgrad, I watched my dept go through a lengthy procedure to hire 4 new tenured staff. I gather there was an enormous pile of applications for the positions. Not one woman was shortlisted, although the gender imbalance on the faculty is extreme. Since my own publication record <i>looks</i> appalling I don't know why I even bother to send out applications, but I do. When one of my local referees was asked for further information (from an enlightened university to which I had applied for a faculty position) he called me into his office to laugh at me for even bothering to apply. Since I'm now 40 yrs old, I think I should really give up on all the wasted effort. As a woman in my field, I think your CV needs to look drop-dead amazing before anyone even looks at it. Last, as a senior postgrad, I watched my dept go through a lengthy procedure to hire 4 new tenured staff. I gather there was an enormous pile of applications for the positions. Not one woman was shortlisted, although the gender imbalance on the faculty is extreme. Since my own publication record looks appalling I don’t know why I even bother to send out applications, but I do. When one of my local referees was asked for further information (from an enlightened university to which I had applied for a faculty position) he called me into his office to laugh at me for even bothering to apply. Since I’m now 40 yrs old, I think I should really give up on all the wasted effort. As a woman in my field, I think your CV needs to look drop-dead amazing before anyone even looks at it.

]]> by: drshellie http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2007/09/09/is-it-easier-for-women-to-get-faculty-jobs-in-science-and-engineering/#comment-410 Wed, 19 Sep 2007 22:09:43 +0100 http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2007/09/09/is-it-easier-for-women-to-get-faculty-jobs-in-science-and-engineering/#comment-410 These statements aren't contradictory-- 1) on average, the percentage of women in tenure-track jobs at R1 universities is less than the percentage of women graduating with PhD's. (Though I don't know if there is data, it may also be true that the percentage of hires that are female is less than the percentage of applicants who are female.) 2) <em>If a department wants to hire a particular person</em> (say, you), it may be able to use diversity arguments to help create a position. For anyone approaching this year's application season, it is probably less helpful to get depressed by the averages than to pursue whatever opportunities open up, in hopes of coming out on the upper end of the variance. These statements aren’t contradictory–
1) on average, the percentage of women in tenure-track jobs at R1 universities is less than the percentage of women graduating with PhD’s. (Though I don’t know if there is data, it may also be true that the percentage of hires that are female is less than the percentage of applicants who are female.)
2) If a department wants to hire a particular person (say, you), it may be able to use diversity arguments to help create a position.
For anyone approaching this year’s application season, it is probably less helpful to get depressed by the averages than to pursue whatever opportunities open up, in hopes of coming out on the upper end of the variance.

]]> by: amIawomanscientist http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2007/09/09/is-it-easier-for-women-to-get-faculty-jobs-in-science-and-engineering/#comment-409 Wed, 19 Sep 2007 06:46:05 +0100 http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2007/09/09/is-it-easier-for-women-to-get-faculty-jobs-in-science-and-engineering/#comment-409 The statistics don't support your assertion that women have an advantage in making it to any stage of the hiring process... in fact, the stats say the opposite. Check out NAS's 2007 report "Beyond Barriers and Bias"... they have a nice reference list. With the exception of a few subfields (see Kulis et al. 2002, Research in Higher Education 43:657-691), there is not an inverse relationship between the representation of women in the doctorate pool and their representation among faculty... a field with few women doctorates is just as likely to have women underrepresented in the faculty as in women-majority fields. In addition, women are least likely to make it into t-t positions in R1 universities... women are more likely to be hired into non-t-t positions and in community colleges. A warning though: make sure to take your Prozac before spending too much time on the data.... Also, how do we interpret the situation that the final candidates of a t-t search include one woman "star" and two less stellar men? Sounds to me like women's CVs have to be much better than men's in order to get considered (see Wold and Wennerås, 1997, Nature 387:341-343)... it doesn't support the contention that there are few women in the field and all are stars. The statistics don’t support your assertion that women have an advantage in making it to any stage of the hiring process… in fact, the stats say the opposite. Check out NAS’s 2007 report “Beyond Barriers and Bias”… they have a nice reference list. With the exception of a few subfields (see Kulis et al. 2002, Research in Higher Education 43:657-691), there is not an inverse relationship between the representation of women in the doctorate pool and their representation among faculty… a field with few women doctorates is just as likely to have women underrepresented in the faculty as in women-majority fields. In addition, women are least likely to make it into t-t positions in R1 universities… women are more likely to be hired into non-t-t positions and in community colleges. A warning though: make sure to take your Prozac before spending too much time on the data….

Also, how do we interpret the situation that the final candidates of a t-t search include one woman “star” and two less stellar men? Sounds to me like women’s CVs have to be much better than men’s in order to get considered (see Wold and Wennerås, 1997, Nature 387:341-343)… it doesn’t support the contention that there are few women in the field and all are stars.

]]> by: drshellie http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2007/09/09/is-it-easier-for-women-to-get-faculty-jobs-in-science-and-engineering/#comment-408 Sun, 16 Sep 2007 04:25:34 +0100 http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2007/09/09/is-it-easier-for-women-to-get-faculty-jobs-in-science-and-engineering/#comment-408 Hi anon-- the reason your comment took a while to appear is that there was a link in it, which automatically tagged it for moderation. It's up now. Hi anon– the reason your comment took a while to appear is that there was a link in it, which automatically tagged it for moderation. It’s up now.

]]> by: Lab Lemming http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2007/09/09/is-it-easier-for-women-to-get-faculty-jobs-in-science-and-engineering/#comment-407 Sun, 16 Sep 2007 00:27:52 +0100 http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2007/09/09/is-it-easier-for-women-to-get-faculty-jobs-in-science-and-engineering/#comment-407 You haven't mentioned the problem of departments which will interview women despite having members on the selection committee who will find every dodgy excuse they can think of not to hire female researchers. You haven’t mentioned the problem of departments which will interview women despite having members on the selection committee who will find every dodgy excuse they can think of not to hire female researchers.

]]> by: anon http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2007/09/09/is-it-easier-for-women-to-get-faculty-jobs-in-science-and-engineering/#comment-406 Sat, 15 Sep 2007 21:54:22 +0100 http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2007/09/09/is-it-easier-for-women-to-get-faculty-jobs-in-science-and-engineering/#comment-406 Comment seemed to disappear - trying again... <a href="http://chronicle.com/jobs/v45/i19/4519moving.htm" rel="nofollow">Token</a> <a href="http://chronicle.com/jobs/2003/06/2003060401c.htm" rel="nofollow">interview</a> anecdotes. I say much about personal experience, because it wouldn't be appropriate to say too much about the committee on which I sat where it was concluded that, "I guess we should invite the women who applied, because it would look good." Comment seemed to disappear - trying again…

Token interview anecdotes.

I say much about personal experience, because it wouldn’t be appropriate to say too much about the committee on which I sat where it was concluded that, “I guess we should invite the women who applied, because it would look good.”

]]> by: MsPhD http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2007/09/09/is-it-easier-for-women-to-get-faculty-jobs-in-science-and-engineering/#comment-402 Thu, 13 Sep 2007 22:16:23 +0100 http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2007/09/09/is-it-easier-for-women-to-get-faculty-jobs-in-science-and-engineering/#comment-402 There is no such thing as the token interview, and I think it is a myth that women are more likely to get invited to interview at all. I would be happy to get a token interview if such a thing existed, since it would at least give me a chance to stick my foot in the door without having it chopped off. There is no such thing as the token interview, and I think it is a myth that women are more likely to get invited to interview at all. I would be happy to get a token interview if such a thing existed, since it would at least give me a chance to stick my foot in the door without having it chopped off.

]]> by: shannon http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2007/09/09/is-it-easier-for-women-to-get-faculty-jobs-in-science-and-engineering/#comment-400 Wed, 12 Sep 2007 16:22:13 +0100 http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2007/09/09/is-it-easier-for-women-to-get-faculty-jobs-in-science-and-engineering/#comment-400 Dr. Shellie's observation, "Of these, there will be some number that the department would really like to hire. It could be one, or two, but is probably not all..." hits home for me. I have been on hiring committees in three separate schools that had the same dynamic in this area. Three candidates were chosen to interview for an open (mathematics) position. In each case, the committee was careful to make sure that there was a woman on their list. But in all three situations, the lone woman candidate was a "star": someone who the school could not reasonably expect to attract, and the other two candidates were men. In each case, the school made an offer to the superstar, who did not accept the position, and so the job went to a man. Even though the committee thought that they were being open to gender issues, women never made it to the second tier of the list, and no one from the first tier ever accepted a position with them. Dr. Shellie’s observation, “Of these, there will be some number that the department would really like to hire. It could be one, or two, but is probably not all…” hits home for me.

I have been on hiring committees in three separate schools that had the same dynamic in this area. Three candidates were chosen to interview for an open (mathematics) position. In each case, the committee was careful to make sure that there was a woman on their list. But in all three situations, the lone woman candidate was a “star”: someone who the school could not reasonably expect to attract, and the other two candidates were men. In each case, the school made an offer to the superstar, who did not accept the position, and so the job went to a man.

Even though the committee thought that they were being open to gender issues, women never made it to the second tier of the list, and no one from the first tier ever accepted a position with them.

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