Comments on: The boys who intimidated me http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2006/12/20/the-boys-who-always-knew-all-the-answers/ life, life in science, miscellaneous thoughts Thu, 21 Aug 2008 23:58:59 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=1.5.1-alpha by: CCPhysicist http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2006/12/20/the-boys-who-always-knew-all-the-answers/#comment-262 Sun, 07 Jan 2007 01:12:24 +0000 http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2006/12/20/the-boys-who-always-knew-all-the-answers/#comment-262 The comment: "figuring out that those alpha males were not all they claimed to be" hits it on the head. As an instructor, I can spot the guys who hope bluster will get others to quit, or not try hard, but it is hard for students to realize where they stand. Worst are the ones whose self confidence leads them to make insane errors in the lab, or get a female lab partner to think they know what they are doing. And I agree that atmosphere is everything for any under represented population (female or minority, let alone one who is both). All I can do is foster it, making sure talent is reinforced. The comment: “figuring out that those alpha males were not all they claimed to be” hits it on the head. As an instructor, I can spot the guys who hope bluster will get others to quit, or not try hard, but it is hard for students to realize where they stand. Worst are the ones whose self confidence leads them to make insane errors in the lab, or get a female lab partner to think they know what they are doing.

And I agree that atmosphere is everything for any under represented population (female or minority, let alone one who is both). All I can do is foster it, making sure talent is reinforced.

]]> by: drshellie http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2006/12/20/the-boys-who-always-knew-all-the-answers/#comment-255 Fri, 05 Jan 2007 06:10:06 +0000 http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2006/12/20/the-boys-who-always-knew-all-the-answers/#comment-255 "the average decently smart scientist who knows he/she is not a genius but is still productive" Yup, that would be me! “the average decently smart scientist who knows he/she is not a genius but is still productive”
Yup, that would be me!

]]> by: Jf http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2006/12/20/the-boys-who-always-knew-all-the-answers/#comment-254 Thu, 04 Jan 2007 19:39:54 +0000 http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2006/12/20/the-boys-who-always-knew-all-the-answers/#comment-254 I see young women do this all the time: they assume they're dumber because the guys *seem* like they have more confidence/ability. Hey, I've done it myself. I wonder if it's related at all to this classic psych study my mother is always quoting, wherein men getting a wrong answer in a fake-game shrug it off, and women tend to blame themselves and express feelings of failure. Of course, whether it's nature or nurture is a different question. Pinko, I sympathize with the faking-it feeling. Me too! Me too! I see young women do this all the time: they assume they’re dumber because the guys *seem* like they have more confidence/ability. Hey, I’ve done it myself. I wonder if it’s related at all to this classic psych study my mother is always quoting, wherein men getting a wrong answer in a fake-game shrug it off, and women tend to blame themselves and express feelings of failure.

Of course, whether it’s nature or nurture is a different question.

Pinko, I sympathize with the faking-it feeling. Me too! Me too!

]]> by: Pinko Punko http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2006/12/20/the-boys-who-always-knew-all-the-answers/#comment-252 Wed, 03 Jan 2007 18:55:06 +0000 http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2006/12/20/the-boys-who-always-knew-all-the-answers/#comment-252 I think another issue besides the ones raised here, are that there are quite smart people with no self-confidence issues, and less smart people that also do not have self-confidence issues. Genius shmucks and not-so-genius shmucks. I don't want to talk about these classes. I want to talk about the average decently smart scientist who knows he/she is not a genius but is still productive. The most common feeling I seem to see among these people are that they are somehow kind of faking it all along, and that they will somehow be nailed for it. That is how I feel. I think another issue besides the ones raised here, are that there are quite smart people with no self-confidence issues, and less smart people that also do not have self-confidence issues. Genius shmucks and not-so-genius shmucks. I don’t want to talk about these classes. I want to talk about the average decently smart scientist who knows he/she is not a genius but is still productive. The most common feeling I seem to see among these people are that they are somehow kind of faking it all along, and that they will somehow be nailed for it. That is how I feel.

]]> by: Alethea http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2006/12/20/the-boys-who-always-knew-all-the-answers/#comment-248 Tue, 02 Jan 2007 14:35:15 +0000 http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2006/12/20/the-boys-who-always-knew-all-the-answers/#comment-248 This thread demonstrates why it is still useful to have all-women's colleges around. And why most girls at such colleges would have HATED going to an all-girls' high school. Once I got from my co-ed public HS, where I was one of a couple of girls in the AP-level math and science classes (with the exception of biology), into my physics, chemistry and biology classes at college, where EVERYONE except, half of the time, the professor was female - well, it rocked. I learned I could really get good grades and it was because I had actually assimilated the material. By the time the little fish-big pond syndrome had struck, I was in grad school and gender wasn't an issue anymore in how I defined myself professionally. I knew I was pretty good, and that there were a lot of men AND women who were smarter than me, but it wouldn't prevent me from doing a good job anyhow if I chose to go into research. (My most debasing professional moment came from a female advisor with two kids, who so gently called my ambition into question that I was struck with self-doubt for a good month or so. Precisely because I couldn't pawn it off onto her sex or marital status or whatever - she was a leader in her own generation.) This thread demonstrates why it is still useful to have all-women’s colleges around. And why most girls at such colleges would have HATED going to an all-girls’ high school. Once I got from my co-ed public HS, where I was one of a couple of girls in the AP-level math and science classes (with the exception of biology), into my physics, chemistry and biology classes at college, where EVERYONE except, half of the time, the professor was female - well, it rocked. I learned I could really get good grades and it was because I had actually assimilated the material. By the time the little fish-big pond syndrome had struck, I was in grad school and gender wasn’t an issue anymore in how I defined myself professionally. I knew I was pretty good, and that there were a lot of men AND women who were smarter than me, but it wouldn’t prevent me from doing a good job anyhow if I chose to go into research. (My most debasing professional moment came from a female advisor with two kids, who so gently called my ambition into question that I was struck with self-doubt for a good month or so. Precisely because I couldn’t pawn it off onto her sex or marital status or whatever - she was a leader in her own generation.)

]]> by: Cloud http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2006/12/20/the-boys-who-always-knew-all-the-answers/#comment-240 Mon, 01 Jan 2007 17:23:30 +0000 http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2006/12/20/the-boys-who-always-knew-all-the-answers/#comment-240 I had a similar high school to college transition experience- which isn't surprising, since we went to the same college! I struggled with my math and science classes my first year, while everyone else seemed to have learned this stuff in high school (I went to an average public high school in the west). The only good thing was that it forced me to learn how to study in my first year, which served me well by my third year, when the classes got hard for most people. In the end, I did well, and starting winning summer fellowships and scholarships. And then the boys (including one I was dating!) told me that they wished they were girls so that they could win fellowships, too.... I had a similar high school to college transition experience- which isn’t surprising, since we went to the same college! I struggled with my math and science classes my first year, while everyone else seemed to have learned this stuff in high school (I went to an average public high school in the west). The only good thing was that it forced me to learn how to study in my first year, which served me well by my third year, when the classes got hard for most people. In the end, I did well, and starting winning summer fellowships and scholarships. And then the boys (including one I was dating!) told me that they wished they were girls so that they could win fellowships, too….

]]> by: MsPhD http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2006/12/20/the-boys-who-always-knew-all-the-answers/#comment-237 Sun, 24 Dec 2006 20:38:05 +0000 http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2006/12/20/the-boys-who-always-knew-all-the-answers/#comment-237 Lab Lemming, you have a typo in your comment- I think you mean you weren't "real good at noticing", even though that's rather Southern sounding grammar anyway. Dr.Shellie, this is a great post. I never thought of it this way because for me it started in grade school, where I was already the only girl in my math group. So I always knew it was me vs. the boys, and felt very strongly throughout that I would never be good enough. There were no other girls for many years. It wasn't until college when I met one or two female study pals, okay maybe 3 total in 4 years. Grad school was different because for once there were more women, but now some of them were really trying to make it competitive instead of banding together to fight the boys. I still find that odd, but it seems to be the way most scientists are. They'll help you only if you're nonthreatening (i.e. work on something different or are at a different point in your career), and even then they usually won't help you at all. Lab Lemming, you have a typo in your comment- I think you mean you weren’t “real good at noticing”, even though that’s rather Southern sounding grammar anyway.

Dr.Shellie, this is a great post.

I never thought of it this way because for me it started in grade school, where I was already the only girl in my math group. So I always knew it was me vs. the boys, and felt very strongly throughout that I would never be good enough. There were no other girls for many years. It wasn’t until college when I met one or two female study pals, okay maybe 3 total in 4 years. Grad school was different because for once there were more women, but now some of them were really trying to make it competitive instead of banding together to fight the boys. I still find that odd, but it seems to be the way most scientists are. They’ll help you only if you’re nonthreatening (i.e. work on something different or are at a different point in your career), and even then they usually won’t help you at all.

]]> by: drshellie http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2006/12/20/the-boys-who-always-knew-all-the-answers/#comment-236 Fri, 22 Dec 2006 08:21:58 +0000 http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2006/12/20/the-boys-who-always-knew-all-the-answers/#comment-236 Note that the boys weren't necessarily <em>trying</em> to intimidate me-- yet I was intimidated, because I had a preconception that they were ahead of me, and possibly smarter. Note that the boys weren’t necessarily trying to intimidate me– yet I was intimidated, because I had a preconception that they were ahead of me, and possibly smarter.

]]> by: Lab Lemming http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2006/12/20/the-boys-who-always-knew-all-the-answers/#comment-235 Thu, 21 Dec 2006 07:17:48 +0000 http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2006/12/20/the-boys-who-always-knew-all-the-answers/#comment-235 For me, science classes were the only aspect of university that wasn't intimidating. If sex-based intimidation went on, I didn't notice it, but I wasn't real good at notice anything more subtle than a rock hammer back then. Our department was a bit unusual, though- it had the highest female population (62%) of any physical science department in the US, when ratioed to the student body (52% women). For me, science classes were the only aspect of university that wasn’t intimidating. If sex-based intimidation went on, I didn’t notice it, but I wasn’t real good at notice anything more subtle than a rock hammer back then. Our department was a bit unusual, though- it had the highest female population (62%) of any physical science department in the US, when ratioed to the student body (52% women).

]]> by: Lab Lemming http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2006/12/20/the-boys-who-always-knew-all-the-answers/#comment-234 Thu, 21 Dec 2006 07:00:40 +0000 http://drshellie.blogsome.com/2006/12/20/the-boys-who-always-knew-all-the-answers/#comment-234 We're intimidating because we catch typos: "training my frequenting the TA’s office hours." my=by, perhaps? Real thoughts next... We’re intimidating because we catch typos:
“training my frequenting the TA’s office hours.” my=by, perhaps? Real thoughts next…

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